Dr. Apollonya Porcelli talks about how water and climate change are connected and ways in which we can help restore our waters to their peak health.
Dr. Apollonya Porcelli talks about how water and climate change are connected and ways in which we can help restore our waters to their peak health.
You can find Dr. Porcelli published work in academic journals including Marine Policy, DuBois Review, Geoforum, and Environmental Sociology.
1 Point 5: A Kids Climate Justice Podcast
S1 EP8 What Happens to Our Waters and Life Therein at 1.5 Degrees Celsius?
[INTRODUCTION]
Zanagee: Hi there and welcome back to One Point Five: A Kids Podcast About Climate Justice! I’m Zanagee Artis.
Olivia: And I’m Olivia Greenspan.
Zanagee: And we believe that kids like you deserve a livable future.
Smart Speaker: A liveable future. This means a future where no one will have to worry if our planet is healthy enough for humans to live safe and happy lives.
Olivia: Hey, Joanna, that's Joanna. If you haven't already met her, she is our on-hand dictionary. If we ever come to a word or phrase that you might not know or understand already, or just need a reminder about
Zanagee: Yes. In 1 Point 5, we explore the challenges facing our planet with scientists, youth activists, and other environmental leaders who have experienced the realities of the climate crisis firsthand.
Olivia: Today is a very special episode because it's our first installation of our third and final chapter of this season of 1 Point 5, which is all about SOLUTIONS to the climate crisis! If you’ve been following along, you’ll remember that in Part 1 we discussed what climate change is with Dr. Heather Price and who is involved in the climate movement with Levi Draheim.
Zanagee: Yes, and in Part 2 we focused on intersectionality, and spoke to friends involved in the climate movement who share different perspectives and, importantly, focus on bringing even more perspectives than just their own into the climate movement.
Olivia: Yes. I loved section two and well! I loved to part two and today for our first of. And today for our first of four episodes and our solution section, which will be split into water, air, earth and fire. We're speaking with Dr. Apollonya Porcelli, a scientist who specializes in marine ecology and the intersection of science culture and the politics of fisheries.
Zanagee: Yes, I'm so excited for this. In our conversation with Dr. Porcelli, we’ll explore the issue of climate change and water! And we'll learn about how water and climate change are connected, what ocean justice is, and how we can help restore our waters to their peak health.
Olivia: I'm not sure how other people keep writing terrible puns for me, but I'll take them to the team once again. Zanagee are you ready to swim in some new knowledge?
Zanagee: Excellent. Excellent. I am ready to dive in today!
[MEET THE GUEST]
Zanagee: Awesome. So we want to jump in and this episode is of course, about water. And so wondering if you can share what is the relationship between water and climate change?
Dr. Porcelli: Yeah. Great question. Uh, so first the way I want to answer that is to sort of talk about the relationship between water and climate. And, um, although we oftentimes think that trees are the lungs of the place. Um, it's actually probably better to say that the oceans are the lungs of the planet because around 80% of all of the oxygen in the atmosphere comes from the ocean and comes from organisms like seaweed and phytoplankton that absorb CO2 and then release oxygen.
Um, so they're super important just for the regulation of our planet. Um, the air that we breathe more than anything, um, And then second, thinking about climate change and the relationship to water, um, ocean sort of being that big regulated. They absorb all of that excess heat in the atmosphere. And in fact, a recent study in 2020 came out and said that approximately 90% of the excess greenhouse gas, uh, excess heat caused by greenhouse gas, um, is absorbed by the oceans.
And so we can estimate that number. We really have no idea what that means. We have some knowledge, you know, we see that in coral reefs, changing fish migration patterns, increased ocean acidification. Um, and then, you know, probably the third, most important way to think about oceans, um, specifically water and climate change is then also thinking about the effects of this excess heat on freshwater systems and, um, the weather.
And so we're seeing, you know, we just had the most recent. The first, uh, hurricane made landfall in new England and the first time in 30 years, just last week or two weeks ago. And we're talking as hurricane Ida is barreling towards Southeast Louisiana. Um, so we're going to see more cyclones, we're going to see more hurricanes.
Um, but the way that sort of affects us oftentimes in cities is in two different ways is between these stormwater surges like hurricanes and then nuisance flooding. So most of the coastline, which you know, have 60% of the people in the U S live within 30 miles of the coastline, um, they're going to be seeing more nuisance flooding.
You're going to see sewers overfilling. Um, you may not be getting hurricanes as often as some, but, um, we're certainly going to be seeing this encroachment of, of the ocean and fresh water systems in and around our built environment.
Olivia: Awesome. So I heard you say three really important things. One is that and correct me if this is wrong, but I heard you say one, the ocean makes most of our oxygen.
Olivia: Two, the ocean absorbs most of the carbon dioxide in the air.
Olivia: And three, a lot of people have close to oceans, which means they rely on them and they're affected by the storms that are created and worsened by climate change.
Olivia: Wow. Okay.
Zanagee: Okay. And also, and also that, um, the oceans absorb. Generated from the greenhouse gases as well. Okay.
Dr. Porcelli: Yeah. And that heat is absorbed in a lot of different ways. Um, the absorption of CO2 is one of the primary ways. Yeah.
Zanagee: Right. Okay.
Olivia: Awesome. Okay. Next we learned a new term from you, um, that we didn't know which was ocean justice.
So what, what is ocean justice? I actually don't even know.
Dr. Porcelli: Um, well, it's just another justice to add to our toolkit. Um, but simply put it's where social justice meaning issues around race, class, gender ability, intersect with issues around ocean conservation. So I'll just give two brief examples. Um, one of that could be thinking about ocean gentrification in cities like Boston, where you're seeing massive high rises being built in working class neighborhoods and old industrial sites. So you're seeing the displacement of largely communities of color, Black and Brown communities, immigrant communities they're being pushed out to more polluted neighborhoods. So as the coastline becomes more habitable and less toxic, um, you're displacing that, um, you're displacing the people that have lived there.
Um, so pushing them into more polluted areas. And then also there's this issue of sea level rise where, um, You're pushing out people that are going to be the most vulnerable to sea level rise into places where they're going to be hit hardest by it. They're not going to have protection of say flood insurance, um, which a lot of these, some of these new buildings and new developments have.
Another way to think about ocean justice is thinking about food and where food comes from. Um, I like to think a lot about the labor conditions that go into getting our seafood to our table. And I think the shrimp fishery and industrial tuna fishery are two examples where you have some of the most egregious forms of labor exploitation, um, where you see, you know, the exploitation specifically of ethnic minorities, um, in Southeast Asia.
So then that way people in New York city can have nice tuna tartare, but, um, we don't think enough about those conditions, um, when we think about what we eat. So, um, sorry. Finally, I want to say that because of the important role of oceans in regulating our climate and sort of experiencing and absorbing the cost of climate change.
I think ocean justice is climate justice. Um, I don't think you can have one without the other. We are an aquatic based planet. 75% of our planet is oceans. Um, is water actually. Um, and even though we are a land-based people or species, um, it's really easy to not think about the ocean. Um, and even when you live in a city in one of these cities like Miami or Boston or LA that are right by the ocean, you don't oftentimes think about the ocean.
A lot of people that live in these cities don't even go to the oceans, but we are entirely dependent on them and connected to them. So part of ocean justice, in addition to thinking about policies and conservation and social justice is also in sort of this mental shift and then sort of like, just knowing that we are an aquatic thinking of us as an aquatic based society instead of just a terrestrial based society.
Zanagee: More from Dr. Porcelli after we return after this quick break.
[BREAK]
Zanagee: Welcome back to One Point Five, a Kids Podcast About Climate Justice. Let’s return to our conversation with Dr. Apollonia Porcelli.
Olivia: What are some of the best policy solutions for taking carbon out of our water, um, making our oceans less acidic and restoring diversity in the water-based natural world?
Zanagee: Listeners, when we talk about “policy solutions”, this means the programs governments create to fix problems that we’re facing.
Smart Speaker: A policy is a principle or course of action proposed or implemented by a governing body. Governing bodies are groups of people that act in unison to guide and support a community, unit, business, institution, etc.
Zanagee: Precisely. Thanks for the help Joanna. Back to Dr. Porcelli’s description of what the best solutions are for healing our water-based natural world.
Dr. Porcelli: Awesome. Well, I'm going to answer that with a two-parter. So the first one I want to say is. Top-down policy is super important because it, um, it can get things done on a system-wide basis on a city-wide basis, nationwide statewide basis, countywide, however, um, top-down meaning, yeah. Coming from the city, coming from the federal government and down on, you know, everyday people.
But I also think it's super important to have bottom up policy, um, mobilization that's driven by communities, neighborhoods.
Smart Speaker: Top-down policy are rules coming from people at the so-called “top.” This includes elected officials like the President. Bottom-up policy means rules and ideas coming from everyday people, like you, your siblings, your teachers, or your neighbors.
Dr. Porcelli: Going back to thinking about urban development and, you know, thinking about protection of affordable housing, improving infrastructure to reduce these issues around like nuisance flooding.
These are things that top down policy stakeholders don't really want to talk about it. They're not really glamorous and they're not very profitable, but it makes a huge difference. If you live in an apartment that's constantly getting flooded. And finding and making sure that that's protected and secured.
So for me, I think when we talk about policy, we need to think about it as like a two way street, you know, from, from the top and also from the bottom from mobilized communities. So then thinking about the kind of policies that we would want to see. There's a whole assortment. So some of them, some could be thinking about marine based planning or ocean system based management, where we're, instead of thinking about commodifying, a single individual, little fish, like the intra Veta or sardines or tuna, but thinking about ecosystem wide spaces, like how do we protect these whole heart, large swaths of space and, you know, ecosystem, uh, excuse me.
Ecosystems like coral reefs and upwelling systems that are highly productive, highly, highly biodiverse, or a lot of ecosystem services, and also are really, um, economically profitable. Those are the kinds of ecosystems that you see protected by these marine base marine protected areas or MPAs.
Another way to think about good policies, or effective policies is not just protecting areas, but also in instituting new kinds of technology that reduces our dependence on fossil fuels. And thinking about oceans, your mind should immediately go to offshore wind. Um, entrepreneur wind farms are increasingly sort of seen as a way in which we can sort of decrease our dependence on fossil fuels, uh, develop stable, sustainable, renewable energy solutions that does not put too much, um, pressure on vulnerable ecosystems. And, um, so where are those places get cited is super controversial and is really highly debated, but increasingly you see them more and more.
Um, also thinking about renewable energy in the oceans is thinking about like tidal buoys and using the tides of the ocean as a way to generate renewable energy.
Um, that's like definitely new technology that you see in some places, but not enough, but it's increasingly becoming a way in which we can generate renewable energy. The third kind of policy that I think would be really great and sort of remediating are our errors in development and in wetland restoration and, um, and just sort of coastline restoration in general, because a lot of what we've done in the US and throughout the world is we filled in these money places, um, these tidal plains, these flood plains, these mangrove forests, these coral reefs, these places that, uh, don't, that are hard to build on, so therefore they're not that good for industry, but now we're realizing like, oh, snap, now that we're having more hurricanes and, uh, sea level rise, we realize, oh, these these kinds of tidal areas and floodplains are starving.
And they are, uh, they buffer against storm surges, nuisance flooding. Um, they provide other kinds of super important filter purposes, like filtering out pollutants and toxins. Runoff from farms, uh, farms is also a huge key part of ocean acidification. Um, and, just toxic toxics in the coastal areas. So these, um, wetlands and salt marshes and mangrove forests and coral reefs are also important for, I mean, as buffers and as filters.
Zanagee: Dr. Porcelli, thank you so much for joining us and just want to summarize a bit about what we learned today.
So we know now that our oceans regulate our climate, they create most of our oxygen and they also absorb most of the carbon dioxide. That's in the atmosphere from the fossil fuels that we burn, which is causing climate change. And we also know that. Around the world rely on stable oceans to live safe and happy lives.
Dr. Porcelli: Thank you so much for having me again, it's been a real privilege and an honor to talk with you. Just very excited about, um, what we've talked about here today. So hopefully that excitement can spill over the airwaves and, and attract people.
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Zanagee: That concludes our conversation with Dr. Porcelli about solutions for restoring our water-based world! As someone who loves water and the ocean, this was such an interesting conversation for me. Now it’s time to reflect on what we’ve learned with…
[CLIMATE JUSTICE GAME SHOW]
Olivia: All right. The first question goes to what I think is one of the most interesting facts about climate change. Okay, listeners. Zanagee, Question 1: what is the relationship between water and climate change?
Zanagee: Yeah, so huge relationship between water and climate change! Just like how it's important that you drink water, water, uh, regulates the temperature in your own body. And our oceans regulate our climate and absorb most of our greenhouse gases. But this, this absorption of greenhouse gases has a limit. And so far, approximately 90% of excess heat caused by greenhouse gases has been absorbed by the ocean.
Olivia: Yes, that's correct. And I think. This blows my mind. Every time 90% of excess heat caused by greenhouse gases has been absorbed by the ocean. I mean, the ocean is really pulling its weight, but it's also scary to think about sometimes because like Zanagee said, this has a limit.
The ocean can't just keep absorbing all of this extra carbon dioxide. And, you know, the balance unfortunately keeps, um, getting unbalanced. So. Thank God, this is the solution section because we can talk about some great solutions to this.
Zanagee: Absolutely. Yeah. And like so many organizers say, uh, in the climate movement, water is life. And water is so important for everything and this conversation. Okay, Olivia, are you ready for question two?
Olivia: I’m ready.
Zanagee: What is ocean justice?
Olivia: Yes. Okay. This was something new I learned today. Okay. I remember Dr. Porcelli explaining that ocean justice is where issues of social. Issues that we've talked about in this show, like race like class, um, some issues that we haven't talked about yet, like gender and ability intersect with issues around ocean conservation.
So just like climate justice is thinking about ways that the actual physical impacts of climate change affect people who are living on the planet. Um, My understanding is that ocean justice is where issues that affect ocean health. Um, intersect with the ways that people live on the planet.
Zanagee: Yes. And we can connect this to other things that we've already learned, like climate justice, which is essentially the impacts of climate change on specific communities and how we are actually remedying. These impacts for specific communities who are already being impacted by climate change that have these intersecting identities.
Or as a general rule, um, anytime justice is tagged onto something it's safe, but the safe bet to assume that it means looking at the issue through the lens of how different people may be effected differently and what solutions we need to make sure everyone has access to what they need. So when we talk about justice, we're talking about intersectionality.
We're talking about the different identities that people hold and how justice can actually work toward a solution for these people and toward a better future.
Olivia: So well said Zanagee. Okay, third and final question: What are some of the best policy solutions for taking carbon out of our water and restoring diversity in the water-based natural world?
Zanagee: Policy solutions. Yes. I, I love talking about policy and of course this is the solutions section, after all. The best policies are ones that combine input from top down, meaning government officials, um, at the highest levels of government and the bottom up, meaning everyday people, grassroots organizers, communities living, um, near wetlands and near rivers and these bodies of water that are actually being impacted.
And one type of policy that Dr Porcelli mentioned was investing in new kinds of technology that would reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, like wind farms, because then we don't have these greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, um, that are being absorbed by the ocean.
Olivia: Beautifully said again. We need solutions that involve all people who are affected by our water systems, which is like, so many people. And with that, that concludes today’s segment of the climate justice gameshow!!
Zanagee: Thanks for playing along. And remember - as always - you are learning new things just by listening.
[CLOSING]
Olivia: Thank you, listeners, for joining us today. And thanks to Dr. Porcelli for sharing her experience on the oceans! Dr. Porcelli is currently a postdoctoral fellow at the College of the Holy Cross. You can find her work published in academic journals including Marine Policy, DuBois Review, Geoforum, and Environmental Sociology.
One Point Five is written by me, Olivia Greenspan
Zanagee: and me, Zanagee Artis.
Smart Speaker: With occasional support from me, Joanna, from NaturalReaders.com.
Olivia: Our show is edited and produced by Matthew Winner with help from Ari Mathae and the team at Sound On Studios. Our executive producer is Jelani Memory. And this show was brought to you by A Kids Podcast About.
Zanagee: This show is inspired by our book, A Kids Book About Climate Change, and the millions of young people around the world fighting for their right to a livable future.
Olivia: You can write to us (Please, do! We love when people write to us.) at listen@akidspodcastabout.com. And check out other podcasts made for kids just like you by visiting akidsco.com.